GR’s Jackie Mulligan interviewed Judi and Andy from the multi-award winning Dreaming Methods and One to One Development Trust earlier this year following their winning the Most Innovative Use of Technology Award in 2023. In 2024, they were commended for their role in communities.
What is great about working with the Games Industry or in the Games Industry depending on where you sit?
Judi: That is a really good question actually Jackie, a good starter I would say. I mean, Andy comes from a games background, which he can tell you about, but I think we sit between a lot of different sectors. What I find really exciting about the games industry is I just find that people are so nice. There is a genuine comradery and support. Game Republic have worked well at bringing that community together, but I do genuinely think that, compared to a lot of other sectors, there is a real authenticity about it.
Andy: My background in games goes right back to the Commodore Amiga. I used to be a shareware author. So, as a lot of people who “grew up with the Amiga” say, it was a very creative time. It was a creative machine to own. At that time, being a developer was much more isolated, more “back bedroom” for a lot of people. It’s interesting, because I’m also a writer, and I did a bit of a detour from games for quite a while after the Amiga scene deteriorated, and then returned to my roots and started to integrate elements of gaming into what we were doing. It hit me that the games industry had completely changed from what I even remembered and recognised. But I think that seed of having created games all those years ago has always been something that is a thread in our work now. We always approach things with the mentality of them being “game-like” or interactive in some way. I agree with Judi, people are really nice in the industry, which is a huge thing. The writing world can lean to being more individualised and ego-driven in my experience, whereas I think the games industry is more friendly, open and collaborative by nature.
Maybe naturally playful?
Judi: Yes, someone who is a solo developer making their first game could be sitting next to somebody that is the head of a AAA studio, and that divide isn’t so much apparent I don’t think. There’s a definite sense of encouragement and understanding. Playfulness too, playing computer games and sharing crazy ideas is a great way to break down barriers and hierarchies.
Brilliant. If you could advise someone now, starting out, what would you advise them in terms of starting out in their careers? If they were to try to get into the games industry or the in-between sectors that you are forming.
Andy: We’ve had a lot of students contact us recently about that topic. They say things like “how can I make myself and my portfolio more attractive to companies?”. One of the things that’s really helped us is being very cross-discipline – a bit “generalist” in our approach. So, when you’re talking to other people who may have specialisms, you know what they are talking about because you have some experience of it. That is one piece of advice I would be giving students, having very broad knowledge is incredibly useful.
Judi: There’s a debate on being ‘generalist’ because some people can then say that devalues the sector and it devalues particular jobs. But I think if you present that in the context of where we’ve come from, where we haven’t been part of a big company or studio, we have had to do everything ourselves. Whether that is cleaning the sink or programming or shooting and editing the trailer! We’ve have had to do all of those things, so you learn how to do them all. The people we work with, often freelancers, tend to be coming from the same creative perspective as us.
People who’ve come to us, certainly with our One to One Development Trust hat on, for a job, and where we can we try to support. What we do is really nurture their creativity. So, they might have a hidden wish one day to become a 3D artist but not be trained in it, so what we will do is bring those skills on, that is a big part of our ethos. Nurturing new talent and finding out people’s specialisms, really trying to support them and help them find their own way. We have a great team at the moment that really reflects these values.
What has your company been doing in the region to support the sector? How would you describe the impacts your company has on the region?
Judi: We have a strong regional identity in our brand. Particularly our latest Dreaming Methods project, ‘The Abandoned Library’, which is very much set in a fictional Yorkshire town. That project allowed us to take on 4 paid interns and 6 freelance artists who were predominantly based in Yorkshire. That’s what we are interested in. Wakefield, where we’re based, can be known for sculpture and visual arts with Barbara Hepworth and Henry Moore. It has a big games studio with Team 17, but the indie scene doesn’t seem to be as known or visible as it is in some of the other cities in Yorkshire. The landscape is changing quickly though with Production Park, Tileyard and the soon to be opened Wakefield Exchange all contributing to the cultural confidence of the area. So, I’m hoping that Dreaming Methods just nudges that along a bit and maybe inspires some people. We have lots of good links with Yorkshire Universities and Colleges, that type of thing is very important. I am also on the Creative Wakefield Board and have for many years helped shape, develop and support cultural initiatives in the region. Through One to One Development Trust we have supported and worked with 3 generations of young people many from deprived communities who face barriers to accessing the arts and creative industries, its been very rewarding seeing where some of these young people have gone on to achieve. One of our recent projects Our Earth Your Choice involved 20 young people aged 8 to 21 coproducing a video game about climate change over 2 years. I cant wait to see where this cohort end up and what impact they have on the games sector – as they certainly will.
Through all our projects we try and challenge the status quo and improve opportunities and access, another game project Play Your Way into Production deals with barriers facing young people wanting to go into TV. I am keen also that our work demonstrates to young game designers that there are other roads into the industry.
What has been a highlight of your career so far?
Judi: Sorry I need to pick a few .. We made our first immersive experience together in Flash in 2000! It brought us together, as a writer and filmmaker collaboration. That project was called ‘Inside: A Journal of Dreams’ and it still doesn’t look too bad! In 2001 we got invited to a conference at the Sorbonne in Paris to present it. It just felt like we were on top of the world doing that. The second thing for me, has been The Abandoned Library getting to festivals and turning something that’s a VR/gaming experience into an interactive exhibition raising important issues of climate change, AI and displacement – I loved doing that. Our Earth Your Choice is another contender as it was so special working with the young people on this game and I’m super proud of what we all created and the impacts it’s had. Most recently we’ve launched a project about homelessness ‘Streets of Change’ and we’ve created a VR experience which has been touring– I am really proud of this work and committed to it making a positive difference in society.
What about you Andy?
Andy: I agree with Judi’s highlights. Another one would be the launch of a project called ‘Wallpaper’ in 2015, which was also developed for VR. It was a first-person game situated within a gallery setting, which was very interesting, and it had an immersive set around it. There was a complete room built just to experience the game, so it was super moody and atmospheric. I think that project really got us cooking.
What did you have to do then, in a first-person game called ‘Wallpaper’?
Andy: Again, we’re talking about regional links – Wallpaper was set on the North Yorkshire moors. I say it ‘was’ – it’s still available to buy and download. It’s a science fiction ghost story, about a guy who returns from America to his ancestral family home after the death of his mother. He’s a bit of an inventor, and he comes back with a device that can extract memories out of walls. He’s very curious about one particular room in his mum’s house that he was never allowed to go in when he was a kid. So, he wants to go in there and use his device to extract what actually happened in that room. That’s the general concept!
Amazing! So, what influence can companies like yours have on the region, the world and the industry? What do you think the potential impact of what you do can have?
Judi: We get a lot of interest in our work from universities including from India, America and Canada. We have a lot of followers from overseas. We do try to bring people into projects and make links, we are often doing talks and presentations, and Andy does masterclasses with students. So, yeah, our work has quite a broad reach I think really. I founded One to One Development Trust when I graduated, and Andy founded ‘Dreaming Methods’ when he was very young and then the two came together and then we split them. One to One has charitable aims and objectives and board of trustees. We tend to work all over the country on a range of projects and are always ambassadors for Wakefield and the north. The VR project about homelessness was working with West Northampton Council. Projects like that for us are really interesting – a local authority commissioning a VR project on a social issue, that is rare! Since the launch 7 VR headsets have been acquired by homeless charities/groups to raise awareness of homelessness. These are small but important steps in inspiring change – in commissioning, in digital literacy opportunities and in the development of the wider creative sector. Its like the butterfly effect, one small action can inspire bigger impact in the future. Whatever projects we undertake our aim is always to reach new audiences and impact them in a new way, potentially, instigating social change and creating opportunities.
So, you have one organisation that is commercial but also a charity. So, the charity is giving you opportunities to work with groups and then using skills that you have got from the commercial. That is a really interesting relationship, perhaps there is something to be said in terms of you changing thinking about how companies can operate?
Judi: Yes, that is a really good point. In some ways, we are doing more games through One To One with Dreaming Methods focusing more on experimental and immersive storytelling work. But it’s the skills that we are learning through Dreaming Methods that we’re then putting into our more community-focused projects and using the technology to really raise the aspirations of the people within those communities.
Just a point on that question of ‘what do you do to support the industry?’, I think one of the biggest things we do is encourage young people to “think outside the box”. If you’re interested in games design, you don’t necessarily need to just go to games companies to look for a job. You could take those skills to other places, whether that’s within health, the voluntary sector or sport. There is so many different avenues to be looking at.
Andy: We’re good at producing work that’s been built using what you might describe as “game dev tech” but is appealing to non-gaming audiences. People who might say “well, I don’t play games” but then they’ll see something – like perhaps an open event we’re running with a theme they’re interested in – and feel like they can step into it and explore it. This breaking down of barriers, promoting digital literacy and challenging stereotypes is important to us
What do you think of the role of Game Republic?
Judi: We’ve been members of Game Republic for a really long time now. We don’t go to enough events but that doesn’t mean we don’t feel really grateful that we’re part of it. It feels like a community, and I have to say Jackie, since you have been working on it with Jamie, it just feels like it’s flourishing – you both bring such a great skill set to the sector. We always feel proud to say we are part of Game Republic. There is a pride in it. Winning the award last year for Innovative use of Tech, honestly, we were so surprised and pleased. I love that Game Republic are in embracing immersive storytelling within the games sector, I hope that is good for other companies to see the games sector can translate a bit broader.
Andy: I agree with everything Judi has said about Game Republic. I think sitting in between lots of different disciplines, you can feel like you are not part of anything. However, with Game Republic, we have certainly felt, increasingly over the years, more part of a community, which has actually had a big effect on us, a really positive one. It is nice to feel like you’re not isolated, you’re not just operating on your own.
Why is the region a great place to do business?
Judi: I think what’s really good about the Yorkshire region – as well as obviously Game Republic bringing people together – is the diversity of communities. There are so many really good cities and smaller towns and even smaller cities, like Wakefield, next to places like Leeds and Sheffield, so you have that mix of different sectors and industries. I think there’s a real energy about the North. An identity. This is why, from an artistic point of view, all of our Dreaming Methods projects have Northern influences and connotations.
Andy: I’m from Halifax originally and the landscape of that area has had a massive impact on how I design environments within immersive stories and games. I love having Northern voices in the projects that we do. I think the Yorkshire accent works brilliantly in games, we have a lot of comments actually from The Abandoned Library, people coming off it and saying, “it’s so nice to hear that accent!” and “you don’t hear that in games”.
Judi: Nothing is taken for granted in the North. It’s like “ we can do this!” there is much more collective power. I also think there is a strong DIY culture in communities, I would class that as the inspiration for me in lots of ways. When I started my career, just after the miners’ strike, I moved up to Yorkshire to go to Art College. Before that, I was working as a teenager in London. I remember seeing the miners at the top of the tube stations, collecting money, and not fully getting it, then when I came to Yorkshire to go to Bretton Hall College in 1988, it just all made sense to me. The strike, the political situation, the injustice, the resilience and the communities pulling together – all this massively inspired me in my life and creative practice.
The region helped us set up two organisations. I think there are a lot of supportive people, agencies and opportunities in the region and a commitment to nurturing creativity, innovation and enterprise.
My final question is, have you got any insight into upcoming projects?
Judi: We’re further developing the ‘Abandoned Library’. We’re seeing that as part of a short anthology of pieces in the same vein – that’s our key focus with Dreaming Methods at the moment. We’re looking for more funding and at different ways to develop it more into a full-blown narrative game. So, that’s exciting. Our work landscape changes very quickly we are currently working on a couple of mobile games one for a heritage project and one for a health project. Follow us on socials for updates.
Andy: We’re also doing work for hire on various projects, including Inanimate Alice, an award-winning immersive story used in education. It’s a long-running series that started out in 2005, about a girl who grows up wanting to be a games designer. We’re building a new version of an existing episode with multiple language support for use in classrooms. It is a great story, and it has got great visuals.
Andy: The great thing about Inanimate Alice is that the story starts out when Alice is eight, and goes right up to when she’s in her twenties. It’s got this cool “meta thing” going on where every episode gets more sophisticated as Alice gets older and her game-making skills get more advanced. It starts out pretty basic with limited interactivity, but by the time Alice is in her twenties, you’re pretty much into a fairly large first-person game. We’ve been lead developers on the series for nearly 15 years. It’s great to work on because it really aligns with the original core values of Dreaming Methods – amplifying lesser heard voices through immersive storytelling or “digital literature”.
To find out more about Dreaming Methods visit https://dreamingmethods.com/
